Getting 'good at spending' with Jen Smith & Jill Sirianni
Hosts of the Frugal Friends Podcast on spending as a skill, financial stressors and more
Jen Smith and Jill Sirianni’s book Buy What You Love Without Going Broke rivals my own for how often I recommend it to people who want a different way to manage their money. It’s a perfect companion if you’re looking for a more tactical way to eschew restrictive budgeting and have a better relationship with money.
Jen and Jill have been changing the way people think about money — and, specifically, frugality — for years through their popular Frugal Friends Podcast. Jen is a personal finance expert who, along with her husband, paid off $78,000 of debt in two years while facing unemployment and buying a house. Jill is a licensed clinical social worker who enjoys exploring the connections between our money behaviors and mental health.
I invited them both here today to talk about their unique approach to spending and their individual personal relationships with money.
I’ve talked before about how you characterize spending as a skill and that your book teaches readers how to get better at it. If spending is a skill, what does it mean to you to be “good” at it? Is there a way to measure our progress in developing this skill (and is it important to do so)?
Being good at spending looks like understanding where your money is going and being confident those purchases are helping you achieve the life you want. A few things that can help us know we’re improving include:
Shame-free, guilt-free spending.
Purchases meet needs/values 100% (or nearly 100%).
Very few surprises when reviewing transactions.
Financial preparedness for the unexpected.
And just like a good athlete is always improving or getting creative to overcome setbacks, we also should always be improving and getting creative with our spending. We should be looking for ways to spend less on the things we need but don't care about, and discovering new ways to get more of the things we truly care about for less.
Jill Sirianni
What’s the most joyful thing you’ve done with money in the past six(ish) months?
Went on a last minute trip to Puerto Rico with friends. I have a sinking fund for travel (a.k.a. a savings account for short- to mid-term goals) that I have been putting small amounts of money into monthly. There was enough money to cover the trip within the sinking fund so it was an easy yes! Not to mention I also had points with my travel credit card I was able to use to cover the flight.
What messages did you get about money growing up? Which have you held onto and which have you let go?
There was some implied messaging about “money comes and money goes, there’s nothing you can do about it.” This meant spending what you had when you had it, and scrimping and sacrificing when money was tight. In adulthood this led to me being more vigilant with my finances and preparing for a possible “rainy day” ahead. I don’t want to be surprised by emergencies; I want to expect the unexpected. For me this means having an emergency fund in the event of job loss, and additional money set aside for home repairs (and travel like I mentioned earlier!). That said, I try to keep the part of this message that gives permission to spend. It’s possible to go too far to the other extreme and never allow myself to buy anything or always feel guilt for not making the most of every dollar. So identifying my “enough” when it comes to savings and investing goals has been really key to holding the tension between “spend it all” and “hoard it all.”
I also received messages about things being “a waste of money,” which is a concept I have nearly abandoned altogether. Once basic needs are met, I think everyone gets to decide what they choose to spend on. For me spending on luxury handbags would feel like a waste of money, but for someone else who prioritizes those items, it’s a fine purchase! Whereas someone could look at my spending and balk at the amount of times I went out to eat in one weekend but it got me time with friends, allowed me to get out of the house and didn’t require me to cook; which for me wasn’t a waste at all, but an intentional, guilt-free spending decision.
How do various facets of your identity impact your work and finances?
I have a tendency towards “all or nothing” thinking which can pull me towards extremes when it comes to my work and money. If one thing goes wrong financially, I can catastrophize and have myself thinking I’m minutes away from being destitute. Or if I can’t do something the way I initially imagined it, then I might believe it will never work out.
Thankfully I don’t stay in that place, and this knowledge about myself helps me to move into a place of identifying my “radical middle,” meaning taking the good from both extremes and pulling them both together in my approach. Like when I wanted to pay off debt IMMEDIATELY, and I wanted to remain in my social work job, I got creative about how to live a purposeful life while still working toward a financial goal, even if it couldn’t happen right away. This looked like creative housing solutions, gamifying my debt payoff strategy and still setting some money aside to do fun things.
What’s one financial decision that frequently causes you stress? How do you work through it?
I have historically chosen jobs that do not provide health insurance benefits (either small non-profits or self-employment). I love the flexibility and purpose behind the jobs I’ve chosen but lacking this particular benefit has been an ongoing struggle. For me, I have solved for this by opting for a medical sharing plan while also setting aside money into a sinking fund for medical expenses. It’s not a perfect solution and there’s plenty of days that I wish our medical system was better in a multitude of ways, but so far, over the last 15+ years, it has worked for me.
Instead of talking about the weather, what do you wish strangers would ask you about when you meet on the street?
What brought you joy today?
Jen Smith
What’s the most joyful thing you’ve done with money in the past six(ish) months?
I often say paying for daycare is my most joyous expense because, while it is not cheap, it does allow me time each day to do what fills me up, interact with other adults, and just turn off the mothering part of me for a little bit. It has been vital to my mental health and overall sanity.
What messages did you get about money growing up? Which have you held onto and which have you let go?
Growing up, my parents refused to talk about money with me. I would hear them having arguments about money, but whenever they would catch me listening they would stop like money was a bad word that I wasn't allowed to hear about. So when I got to college, I assumed my parents didn't know about money, so, being 18 and thinking I knew everything, I decided I was the best person to listen to about how my money should be spent.
The first formal education I had about money was through [Dave Ramsey’s] Financial Peace University, where I got more negative reinforcement about money and how to (not) spend it. So after hearing about money in a negative light for so many decades, it has truly been a journey to try to come out of that and view money in a neutral light.
How do various facets of your identity impact your work and finances?
As a mother and entrepreneur, I often feel conflicted about how much time I spend working and how much time I spend mothering. They’re both parts of my identity that I love, but I can often feel conflicted to go all in on one or the other. I feel like I'm not doing enough as a mother because I'm working, and I feel like I'm not doing enough as an entrepreneur because I don't want to fully commit to it, and these divided identities do impact how much money I'm able to make.
Frugality has supported me in being able to divide my time and embrace both identities, but it's definitely messaging from traditional and social media that keeps me conflicted.
What’s one financial decision that frequently causes you stress? How do you work through it?
In 2022 we bought a second home to live in, fix up, and eventually sell while keeping our previous home as a rental. To afford the second home, before we sell it, we also have to rent out a section on the back of the house. It has been stressful adding that complexity to our finances. it's something that will grow our wealth eventually and will be a good decision in the long run, so I have to keep reminding myself of that.
It also took all of our savings to renovate this house. While the savings were earmarked for this, it was still uncomfortable seeing the funds leave my account. Seeing this really big safety cushion that we’d built over time not be there anymore is definitely uncomfortable. But it's not something that is draining our finances, so I have to live in the discomfort knowing that in the long run it'll pay off.
Besides yours, what personal finance podcast do you most recommend and why? Who is it best for?
I love Money With Katie. I will often have thoughts about something happening in culture and/or finance and I feel like she’s in my head, because in several weeks she’ll have a deep dive into the history, progression and results of whatever cultural phenomenon I’ve been mulling over.
Instead of talking about the weather, what do you wish strangers would ask you about when you meet on the street?
“What are you excited to be working on right now?” We all spend so much time obsessing over how we feel about the negative things going on in the world, but I think we need to spend as much, if not more, time talking about the impact each of us can make and is excited to make.
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Really interesting interviews. Thank you.